It wasn’t a surprise that Chris Steele (4-star, 39th national rank) or Jahleel Billingsley (4-star, 294th national rank) decided to go to USC and Alabama. And it isn’t a shock that Derek Stingley (5-star, 15th national rank) chose LSU, that Mycah Pittman (4-star, 69th national rank) appears to be leaning towards Oregon or that Ethan Rae (4-star, 243rd national rank) seems like a 50/50 battle with USC.
Fans could point to Steele, Billingsley, Stingley, Pittman and Rae and explain away their commitments elsewhere on being out of state. Steele, Rae and Pittman are from California, so USC and Oregon make sense. Stingley is from Louisiana. Billingsley requires a little more dexterity as he is going from Illinois to Alabama, but you could explain it as the Tide were the only team that could have pulled him out of the Big 10.
But what about the commitment of John Dunmore (4-star, 107th national rank) to Penn State? Dunmore is from Hollywood, Florida.
With all of the out of state recruits going elsewhere, fans have increased the criticism of Mullen. Their biggest area of consternation has been the focus on players 2,500 miles away at the expense of players 350 miles away like Dunmore.
That’s the opportunity cost with this type of high variance strategy. Deliver on those out of state players and Mullen would look like a recruiting boss, doing something even Urban Meyer struggled with during his time in Gainesville. But the downside is significant.
But that criticism of Mullen has been met with a significant backlash. Refrains of “the recruits will come when Mullen is able to show what he can do on the field” and “you’re not a real fan if you’re already criticizing the coach before he’s even coached a game” have become the response to what I view as well thought out, statistically-backed criticisms.
But maybe that is a fair criticism back at the recruitniks? It does make sense that success on the field would lead to recruiting momentum.
A couple of weeks ago, I provided some evidence, albeit limited, that winning on the field did not translate to significant increases in recruit quality for that cycle. But that was also an admittedly small sample size.
But I want to be sure that opinion is backed by the data, so I looked further into the numbers to see what’s there.
Does increased winning on the field improve recruit quality?
The answer to this fairly simple question gets complicated fast. There are limited examples of coaches taking over programs the quality of Florida after a significant down period and having immediate success on the field.
Oh wait, that isn’t true at all. In fact, the last guy at Florida did the same thing. And if you look at just his numbers, you might be convinced that there is something to this after all.
For this study, I looked at all 4-year recruits (no Juco transfers) for the second-year class of coaches who showed an increase in wins from their predecessor who took over programs since 2014. I then averaged their national recruiting rankings according to 247Sports composite for those who committed before and after August 1.
Ironically enough, McElwain is probably the example Florida fans should point to if on-field performance is a recruiting pied piper. He really struggled prior to August 1, with an average ranking over 700. And it looks like his 10-4 record paid dividends, as the average after August 1 dropped to 350. But those numbers get skewed significantly by Kyle Trask (ranked 2126), who committed on July 26. Had Trask committed on August 2, McElwain’s numbers would be 567 before August 1 and 511 after.
This doesn’t invalidate the August 1 date or this exercise. Instead, it suggests that we need a larger sample so that one recruit doesn’t skew the numbers. And when we look at the overall numbers, there is a slight increase in recruit quality after August 1 than prior for 130 total recruits on each side.
So this means that on-field performance actually does increase recruit quality, right? Well, this is where it gets complicated (and to be honest, I haven’t had time to do enough research).
I’ve only had time to look at two coaches who had worse records in their first year than their predecessor: Charlie Strong at Texas and Matt Rhule at Baylor.
Texas scored 29 points per game and had an 8-5 record under Mack Brown in 2013. In 2014, Strong went 6-7 with an offense that scored 21 points per game. Yet the quality of his recruits went up after August 1.
Rhule took over perhaps the worst situation in the country, coming to Baylor in the wake of a nasty sexual assault scandal. Nowhere in the country should have been harder to recruit than Baylor (deservedly so), yet Rhule improved recruiting 10 spots from his transition class (40 to 30). This was in-line with where Baylor was under Art Briles (25th in 2014 and 36th in 2015).
If there was anywhere where it was important to have a decent performance on the field, it was Baylor. Baylor tanked, going 1-11 in 2017 after having gone 7-6 the year prior. Yet, Rhule’s recruits had the exact same ranking prior to August 1 as afterwards. In fact, three of his six blue-chip players committed after the season was over.
While I haven’t gone through all of the coaches who lost more games than won by the year before by their predecessor, I think this is instructive. It looks like I was incorrect in my assessment a couple of weeks ago. There is a slight uptick in recruit performance after August 1, but I’m not sure it’s due to what happened on the field so much as it is that there is just an uptick across the board.
If we look at the timing of the recruits for all of the coaches who saw improved records, the reason for this becomes clearer.
Less top-100 players have committed after August 1 than before for these particular coaches. So it doesn’t look like on-field performance is really impacting the elite-of-the-elite.
Instead, what we see is the top-200 players seem to commit later. This may be because they were waiting to see on-field performance. But I tend to believe it is more because they want to navigate their situation so they are not stuck deep on the depth chart.
The same is true for this year, as only 34 percent of the recruits ranked between 150-200 have committed while more than 48 percent have committed in the other bins.
What this means for Florida
What this means for Florida is that the Gators have a lot of work to do for the 2019 cycle. Mullen has an average recruit ranking of 497.9 for 11 recruits.
Let’s say he killed it on the trail from here on out and signed recruits ranked 150 to 163. That would bring his average recruit ranking to 306.7, right in line with Herman’s second year. But Herman (3rd ranked class) had more top-100 talent, so Mullen’s 247Sports score would only be 270.9. Over the past three years that would have been the 9th ranked class.
But that is the absolute ceiling. If Mullen “only” sees the 50.7 percent bump that McElwain had from August 1 to national signing day (the biggest on the list), that takes his average recruit ranking to 360.4. That’s much closer to Ed Orgeron’s second class at LSU, ranked 15th.
And what if Mullen just sees the average bump (15.5%)? Well, that reduces his average recruit ranking to 455, which probably puts the class in the 17-20 range. For fans who thought McElwain’s recruiting was poor, that’s an absolute dumpster fire.
I don’t think that’s likely. I can’t imagine that Mullen is such a bad recruiter that this holds up for much longer. I suspect he’s going to get a couple of elite recruits to commit during Friday Night Lights, which will not only bring his averages way down, but will quiet the masses for at least a while. Then those percentage increases make things look a lot better, which is why I’ve advocated for not judging his recruiting until after July is over.
But the point remains, Mullen’s going to have to sell the program and sell himself prior to doing anything on the field. Unfortunately for Mullen, the statistics indicate that – at least for the 2019 class – what happens on the field will have much less of an effect than how he sells it prior to ever setting foot on it.
And that – quite frankly – is a reasonable expectation. Tom Herman took over a situation more difficult than the one Mullen is inheriting at Florida. Texas is the flagship school in the state and is used to competing for championships. But the Longhorns had fallen on hard times (44-44 from 2010-2016) and struggled under Charlie Strong. Texas A&M joined the SEC and became a major competitor for recruits and funds. Oklahoma directly north was a Big 12 power.
Yet, Tom Herman immediately made a difference in his second year on the recruiting trail, signing 19 blue-chip recruits in 2018, 11 of them before he ever set foot on the field.
Is it difficult? Yes it is, but it’s the expectation at a flagship program.
Takeaway
I’ve watched on Twitter the last couple of days and wondered why there has been such vitriol spewed in the direction of people who love the Florida program, but have shown legitimate concern about its direction (note: I’m not talking about people who are already calling for firings).
The only thing I can come up with is that when you have no facts to support your argument, your only recourse is to insult the people who do. You label them “whiners” and tell them they’re not “true fans”. You mock them by telling them “it’s only July” and “all that matters is what happens on the field”.
After all, it sounds great to say that recruits won’t commit until they see an improved offense and the stands are filled again. It sounds about as good as people who say they’d prefer a 3-star recruit over a 5-star recruit because the 3-star has had to work harder to get where he is.
The problem is, neither one is true.
Investing in your buddy’s start-up venture because you believe in him and understand what he’s doing is wise. Investing in it only because you believe in him is questionable.
I can’t fully buy into Mullen right now because I don’t understand his approach. I don’t like the focus out of state. I’m concerned that in-state players are now getting pulled out of state. I haven’t agreed with his decision to stick with the QBs he has in his room. And it doesn’t appear that he’s overly concerned with star-rankings, despite their historical reliability.
I hope I’m wrong. I love Florida football and it’s a lot more fun to write positive things about it. But to ask me (and others) to not be critical is asking me to invest in Mullen without understanding his approach, and that’s not something I’m prepared to do.
Others believe differently and that is fine. I don’t agree with their position but I can respect it. However, I am not going to allow them to belittle those of us who put a significant amount of work into making sure that our arguments are fact-based and supported by evidence.
If they can produce evidence-backed arguments that support their position, I’m happy to re-evaluate my opinion. Those are the rules of engagement.
In the meantime, there’s likely one thing upon which we can all agree. September can’t come fast enough.
Nate W
Love the site. Love your articles. Love the Gators. Interesting take here Will, but I feel like you are missing the bigger picture with this one. If your argument is that play on field doesn’t effect current cycle recruiting ranking, then your stats prove you to be correct in most cases. But that should only matter to people who won’t be around to see Gator football after the 2018 season. **Like… you can’t be arguing that results on field won’t ever effect recruiting… Right? ** which is what people should care about… Long term, sustained, relentless, exasperating, 2008-2018 alabama-like Dominance..with a capital D. When Alabama sucked in the late 90s early 2000s they weren’t getting recruits but Florida was. And if Saban hadn’t taken the 13th and 12th ranked classes from his predecessors and started winning with those players you dont think the recruits would have tapered off for him as well? Big name coaches can bring spikes to recruiting but on field performance/ wins and losses bring long term plateaus. Alabama’s year/record/recruiting ranking and recruiting score from 247sports…
2003 season / 4W-9L/ 41st 156.6
2004 season / 6W-6L/ 21st 191.8
2005 season / 10W-2L/ 16th 216.5
2006 season / 6W-7L/ 13th 233.6
2007 season / 7W-6L/ 12th 241.8
2008 season / 12W-2L/ 3rd 291.6
2009 season / 14W-0L/ 3rd 288.6
2010 season / 10W-3L / 4th 284.2
2011-2017 / 1st in recruiting
If Mullen can take the 11th/12th ranked classes he is inheriting (the way Saban did in 07/08) and win… we should see recruits responding long term.
Will Miles
Thanks Nate! This is actually the crux of my argument. If you believe that next year’s class is not impacted by on-field performance, then that means that Saban jumping recruiting to 3rd in 2008 happened independently of the 7-6 record in 2007 (including the loss to LA Monroe). I’d submit that the 12-2 in 2008 was, in part, tied to the 3rd ranked class from 2008.
Nate W
😁… Ok well the 2008 class as freshmen weren’t giving much help to the wins and losses of the 2008 season right? … After perusing the 2008 depth chart… Donta Hightower (64 tackles) , Julio Jones (58 rec 924 yards 4 tds) and Mark Ingram (728 yards 15 touchdowns) all contributed greatly as freshmen… So yeah… Wow what a class for Sabans second year… C’mon Mullen you got this…
Charles Woodbury
Will, I have a hard time understanding why we are attempting to judge Mullen’s first class so harshly, shouldn’t we be looking more at cumulative results over two to three years? One recruiting class, or a bunch of freshmen will not propel Florida to the top in 2019.
What I’m tired of fans why complain about recruiting is that they are just showing they buy into the impatience of the win now or what have you done for me today environment.
Spurrier didn’t start bringing in top 5 classes his first few years, even with the increased on field production. But the fans loved the on field production over recruiting wins with a resounding joy. That is what results in boosters coming back.
All the talk of recruiting is a nice understudy of winning quickly, but the production on Saturday will be more important. Gary Patterson, Chris Peterson, Dabo Sweeney, James Franklin, and Steve Spurrier all improved on field results well prior to any significant bump in recruiting.
What Gator Nation wants more than a top 10 class is an enjoyable product to watch and attend.
I am sure there is more to focus on in the offseason than recruiting. How about we dive into that? Like How Mullen differed in using Prescott and Russell …
Will Miles
The tagline of the site is “curiosity applied to college football”. I have a limited amount of time to devote to the subject and so I write about things that interest me. This interests me because everyone has an opinion on the subject and it can be objectively measured. Quite honestly, I went into this series of articles thinking that a big year on the field would translate to recruiting success in 2019, but that doesn’t jive with the evidence. I learned something, and hopefully my readers did too.
I appreciate and respect your opinion, and have no problem with you deciding to be patient and just enjoy the experience. None of the recruiting analysis means I’ll enjoy the games I attend any less.
Charles Woodbury
I enjoy reading your articles, Will. Maybe one day soon we can all enjoy a great Florida win.
I know these pieces take time, especially with so much research. Thank you. I did not mean to imply I did not appreciate it. I meant to offer a suggestion for your next piece, hopefully.
Will Miles
No worries Charles. Appreciate you reading!
Terry
Kirby Smart went to Bama in 2007 and was named DC in 2008. I think that’s why you see the bump. He’s an elite recruiter, as demonstrated when he went to GA. If Mullen isn’t an elite recruiter (certainly trending that way now), if he is able to excel in coaching (in games and talent development) with inferior talent and win games, the hope is that he becomes a Dabo and trend his way to NCs.
Carl W
Will, I hate to inject something that smells of politics into this, but perhaps you have noticed a trend in recent years in which people decide what they believe, and then any facts that contradict that belief bring hostile rejection. So in bringing up all these inconvenient facts you are stepping on some fans’ cherished beliefs, which they do not wish to surrender.
And, of course, these are sports talk boards … if you can believe what some of these fans think, ADs could save a lot of money they are wasting on hiring coaches and just follow the guidance of these commentators 🙂
I myself would love to believe that if Mullen can put an improved team on the field, recruits will flock to him. Especially since a number of people have made the point that just saying “We are Florida” isn’t true anymore … we haven’t been the “Florida” of Spurrier and Meyer for a long time now. The brand is definitely diminished, so maybe it will happen that way, Mullen shows we can have an offense, and recruits buy in.
But for many years now I have wondered why so many teams that look really awful and fire their coaches manage to quickly rebound on the recruiting trail, despite several years of less than stellar onfield results. Again and again I would find myself wondering why recruits would go to this or that team when it didn’t seem to look very good. Obviously, the recruiting staff is the key. One Example? LSU. Or Georgia after Smart’s first year. Or Georgia all the years we were kicking Richt’s butt.
Now, I happen to think that Mullen was a good hire and that he will turn things around. I think fans need to give him some room and a few years to fix some things that went badly wrong. Most important is whether he can fix Franks, or we have to wait for one of the Jones to emerge. But maybe in our case, once Mullen shows that “Florida” is coming back, recruiting will surge. We can always hope.
That said, I admit that it puzzles me watching teams like Ole Miss and South Carolina getting 4* commits while we struggle with it … because, after all, We Are Florida!
All that said, I agree that we need to wait and see how we finish with this recruiting cycle, and then wait to see what kind of team Mullen puts on the field. Another site is running an interview series with parents, and Taven Bryan’s father lamented how quickly fans expect a team to turn around from a bad situation, and lack the patience to let a sound coach develop his system. Let’s hope Mullen gets that chance.
Will Miles
He should absolutely get that chance. I am not calling for firings, dismissals or predicting doom. And there are outliers all the time and he could have a monster close after going 10-2. It also isn’t August 1 yet and he could have a huge FNL and this is all moot. I certainly hope so.
I think it’s an astute observation that the human condition is to react with biases. Data is supposed to allow us to make rational decisions despite them. I’ll admit I have biases as well and am often proven wrong because of them or interpret the data through the lense of those biases. Part of getting better is admitting that and trying to get other opinions to ensure your biases don’t blind you to what is actually good for you.
Gator Miami
Dan is battling Mac & his 4-7 season along with nearly a decade of dismal offenses. He miraculously managed a first class which measures well within the top 10 when you consider 3 four star, immediate? transfers.
Now with early commitment tendencies due mostly to the early signing period, it’s difficult to imagine a class well placed near or within the top 5. Too many elite recruits have already decided as your stats indicate. By the time that UF can show the necessary improvement to impress them, it will be too late for most (for this recruiting season).
Criticism of Mullen at this point is successful in achieving but one thing. The negativity is creating an aire of doubt about the Florida program that makes recruiting top players even more difficult. Who wants to play for a coach and program that lacks the support of its most vocal fans? That’s why UF has lost top instate talent to the likes of Alabama, Georgia, LSU, Ohio State, Clemson and Auburn, not to omit instate competitors.
I suggest that those who want to further delay Gator success continue to display a lack of confidence in the coaching staff. I’m going to believe that a coach considered by many to be among the top 10 in the nation can get the job done, at least until it’s proven otherwise on the field.
Will Miles
I appreciate you reading and commenting. I respectfully disagree with the idea that criticism is a bad thing. Critical analysis of situations makes things better.
Joseph
I think he’s referring to that more colorful vocal collection in our fan base. The ones who were posting on Steele’s post that he would commit soon. Already saying USC this and that. Or the ones who posted on Zach’s tweet about his making of Steele’s commitment video that if he helped film his commit to another school that Zach would then lose a bunch of FL support and fans. Criticism is never a bad thing. But we seem to have a rabid collection of fans who take it way too far, and they’re the ones who seem to be showing up the most.
BobbyGlen Fender
I do think it is valid to criticize Mullen in recruiting up t this point as areas of concern. After all it was the big question in his resume when he was hired. At the same time the recruiting season is still early. I acknowledge the fact that we are behind our rivals and that is probably due to the most substantial point in your article which is opportunity cost of swinging for the fences in California before you become a major factor in your own state.
I was not enthralled with the hire initially but Mullen has won me over with his genuine enthusiasm he has for being a Gator not seen in a head coach SOS. It is my hope as I know it is yours that his enthusiasm and energy will translate into better recruits and more wins.
There has been a fog of negativity around the program since Urban quite the 1st time. It won’t change until the Gators are relevant factors in the Natty every year. And for the more fickle fans even that won’t be enough. So in my opinion this a article feeds into the element of fans that are stupid enough to be calling for the coaches head before ever coaching a game or completing s full recruiting cycle.
You are one of favorite sports writers and as always you do an abundance or research in your work which I appreciate. I wish the tone of this article was more from the approach can Mullen overcome slow start to this recruiting cycle instead Mullen DOA in recruiting cycle. Which is the way I encoded this article.
PATRICK REDFERN
The only thing I would argue with your post is “the recruiting season is still early”. With early signing this is not early at all in July anymore…
Ken Clarke
Every football fan is an expert. In his own mind.
Nate W
Which is what makes it so fun to talk about…
Smerdyakov with a Guitar
Will: I discovered your site a few weeks ago. I read through the archives and have been following the recent posts and just want to say that you are doing terrific work here. I will be a reader of this site for as long as you continue to post.
To the commentators: Will’s approach in most of these posts is to ask an objective question, study the underlying data, and reach a conclusion. I find this approach valuable because it helps inform us how to intelligently discuss the status of our favorite team.
This post is a perfect example. By any reasonable measure, Mullen is currently lagging on the recruiting trail compared to peer programs. That is beyond question, and the main issue that is up for debate is how to interpret the current state of UF recruiting. One common refrain is that “it’s still early, let the recruits see how we do on the field with Mullen running the team.” As Will shows, however, this sentiment is not supported by the data and it is unlikely that the 2019 class will improve as a result of 2018 on-the-field performance, although future classes (2020 and beyond) may be impacted. That’s helpful for purposes of having an intelligent discussion about recruiting and there is nothing inherently negative about it. Just facts.
I’m baffled by the criticism in these comment threads regarding Will’s supposed negativity when there is nothing of the sort expressed in the actual post. Of course we are all familiar with unduly negative UF fans but we can’t attribute their sentiments to Will.
Will Miles
Thank you for this comment and your compliment. The goal is to learn, hopefully both for myself and for my readers.
TheTebowCurse
Results on the field do translate into successful recruiting, just not immediately. Even winning a National Championship doesn’t have an immediate effect on the same year’s class, but is meaningful for future classes.
Florida is struggling now, mainly, for two reasons. Dan Mullen isn’t a great recruiter and Florida’s football program has been mediocre since Tim Tebow departed.
It’s never been a secret that Mullen isn’t a dynamic recruiter, even as an assistant coach. Florida fans who watched Gator Breakdown were informed of this by a Mississippi State pundit who also said that anyone expecting Mullen to be a great recruiter were barking up the wrong tree.
Florida’s average record A.T. (After Tebow) is 7.5 wins and 5 losses. It takes a dynamic recruiter to overcome that. Dan Mullen isn’t that guy.
So, yes, this year’s on the field results probably will have little effect on this class. But they will effect future ones.
Mark Holcombe
Hi Will,
One thing I wonder is if it matters “how bad” a program had been, and whether or not that would affect recruiting as far as on the field results. I have seen lots of people comparing Smart at Georgia and Taggart at FSU, but it is undoubtably true that Florida has been an inferior program during the last 10 years compared to the situations they inheirated. I would even argue that because of the lack of offensive success, Florida may be in a worse situation that Texas when Herman took over. Even though Florida has some success under McElwain, the program has had an image problem dating back to Urban. I don’t know how you would study program “image” and compare to see if that could affect recruiting until results are shown on the field, but I imagine it might.
Not disagreeing with anything you wrote here, but I am wondering if there is a variable you omitted (which would be understandably hard to measure).
Keep writing, I enjoy the articles and podcast.
Mark
Will Miles
Thanks Mark! That’s why I used Texas and Baylor as examples. At Baylor, you have the scandal, the 1-11 season and a coach who won at Temple, but not big. At Texas, you have a program that has championship pedigree and has a worse record than Florida since Urban Meyer left. Yet there was Herman in year 2 bringing in a top-3 class. There likely is something to the perception of the program, but Mullen is getting all these guys to visit. If the perception was the program was an issue, it seems to me that they wouldn’t bother visiting. Hope I’m wrong.
Tim
Will, thanks for continuing to spread the joy of statistics to us statistically challenged folk.
Just looking to know if you have any historical info that you could provide on the late commits .These would be the highly ranked and some highly marketed kids that have historically committed late in the process. They would be the ones that wait to commit at the all star games(Army and under armour,) and signing day on ESPN. Are these kids the studs that turn the program around or are they no more likely than the early commits to become all conference , or all American?
Thanks
Will Miles
Overall, it looks like it is more the guys ranked 150-250 who wait. Of course, that doesn’t mean that top guys don’t commit on NSD or at the all star games. It just means that you probably shouldn’t count on that consistently happening. I’m certainly rooting for it this year!
Kristopher
I’d love to see a comparison of programs that have gone through the decade long type of downhill spiral Florida has and how fast they have bounced back in recruiting.
Let’s not forget that even though Florida “contended” for a few years during that span, anyone who paid any attention knew it was smoke and mirrors. Even during Champ’s good year it was a good running game and great defense. The average margin of victory as I recall was very small, meaning a bad play here or there and that could have been a very different year. Yellow teeth’s two “good” years anyone (including recruits) could tell that he had a great defense and A LOT of luck. Someone had to win the East and we fell into it twice.
I say all that to point out that even during winning seasons it was ugly decade long debacle and not much fun to watch (with the exception of a few PED Grier moments). How long of a downturn have all these other programs who are having instant success on the recruiting trail gone through?
Kirby is just a good recruiter, plain and simple. However, comparing a Georgia program who hadn’t gone through what Florida has isn’t fair. We need more time to recover. Just ask Nebraska how hard it is to come back. Just because we are Florida doesn’t fly anymore, just like Nebraska.
Will Miles
I think Texas fits the criteria you listed, and I did make that comparison. Nebraska isn’t even close considering the dearth of talent in that state compared to Florida.
Terry
I would consider Tennessee as well. Butch Jones recruited very well at first.